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scarletkilometersplus a digression into mcu meta but I wouldn't worry about it
ScarletKilometers: action movies on alternia are probably nigh-universally blackrom epics
people complain about mandatory blackrom plots in superhero films like we complain about mandatory generic het couples in basically everything
people are 0kay with thor<3<loki because they clearly flipped from pale and that itself is somewhat novel
Gwen: god, really???
Thor <> Loki is like. the worst pairing i can conceive of with them :|
in their past I mean
ScarletKilometers: I mean the "two idiots who've known eachother practically forever" aspect of their dynamic would be harder to hint at when the concept of siblings and therefor conventional sibling relationships don't actually exist
"ex shildhood moirails" is a good approximation tho
most of the fan content featuring these two that I interact with is filtered through the perspective of "remember these two have known eachother since they were toddlers fucking hell this is bananas"
and they really aren't the same to me if you loose that
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: Yeah I mean, the fact that both of them were disastrously, epically, amazingly godawful at the part of their relationship that a troll would categorize as moirallegiance is basically the conflict at the heart of both characters
ScarletKilometers: exactly
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: Thor didn't even notice; Loki did, but that made it even worse for him
and in turn for Thor.
Karrin Boo👻: Honestly that sounds great
Also I do not remember the bathtub fic having quite this many spelling errors
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: They both super super clearly felt like their most important duty was to console and to moderate their sibling, and Thor had no idea how fucking bad he was at it, and Loki was quite good at it but also resented it
which in turn led to him also being bad at it
ScarletKilometers: Failure Mode Tire Fire Moirails just have a lot of interesting potential in general
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: Yeah!
ScarletKilometers: whether they're actively bad for eachother or just mutually comically inept
Gwen: Terezi and Vriska knew each other since they were little and also called each other sisters and also were not moirails before
ScarletKilometers: true, but their narrative conventions are not our narrative conventions
Gwen: I know I probably bring up my humans quadrants in these discussions more than is preferred but even trolls experience the cahoots and shenanipals relationships even if they dont conceive of them as quadrants due to they have four other quadrants and if you had eight they'd be octants
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: I feel like the pre-Team-Charge-Debacle Terezi and Vriska would basically be a perfect example of quadrant-ambiguous-UST in troll media
lowhich is mostly a cover for me thinking pale thor/loki would be a really funny trainwreck
yeah probably
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: Which jesus christ could you imagine the ship wars around media with quadrant-ambiguous UST
Gwen: I feel it is perfectly possible to be in a cohort of raised-together-ish people (keeping in mind that Troll Asgard is also not the same as Alternia) and have similar dynamics without having tried to manage each other's emotions at any point
Unresolved Romantic Tension surely
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: Oh absolutely, but that is not the case in the canonical MCU
(yes you're right, URT)
ScarletKilometers: let's assume tho that this is a symptom of film producers having a shit sense of "is a romantic element actually necessary" being a pan-universal constant and that I was making a Profound Point
Gwen: :P
touche
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: Ha! Good. :D
But, like, the problems between Thor and Loki in the first film are absolutely a case of them both trying to manage each other's emotions and each others' personal development and being mutually godawful at it
Gwen: that wasnt really how I read it
to be fair the Homestuck-canon Worst Moirail Pairs also definitely had one person straight up not understand what moirallegiance was supposed to entail, like, at all, so
Thor being completely oblivious to his half of the bargain scans
ScarletKilometers: Meanwhile Troll Star Wars is kind of an anomaly because the main conflict is ancestor/descendant and all the black ships are background pairings
Gwen:(neither Vriska nor Eridan understand why their moirail keeps trying to like, interfere in their life and find out their emotions and relationships and stuff??? it's none of your business! <>)
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: (yessss)
ScarletKilometers: the ship wars between han<>luke and han<>chewie are intense
Gwen: Luke <3 Lei: the entire empire collectively did a double-take when The Troll Force Awakens was sizing up to be a pale epic
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: I mean, Loki is constantly talking about how he was always having to manage Thor's feelings and moderate Thor's behavior, and the thing that gets him in hot water with Asgard is him resorting to desperate measures in an attempt to force Thor to grow the fuck up (now tainted by his own resentment over all of the above, and his own desire for the thing that Thor is getting), and when pushed, Thor retaliates by trying to talk about how much he's done the same sorts of thing for Loki's bad ideas and emotional weaknesses
Gwen: Yes I think I definitely accept the Loki side for sure
and consideration of Eridan and Vriska has led me to OK the Thor side
I wonder if it was like. an arranged moirallegiance? that they grew up in?
one of you will be the king. and one of you will be the consort. which is which, I'm not telling :3
you both definitely have a shot though!
Narrator: they did not both definitely have a shot though.
ScarletKilometers: from hiveswap it seems like "you two grew up near eachother and are sort of friends, time to get moirailed" is a fairly normal model too
Gwen: Yeah I meant Asgard Politics
it would be pretty tragic if Loki is like, Ok this is one thing I know for sure what is expected of us, just need to make sure to get this moirallegiance thing right and impress Odin and prove I can take the responsibility of the throne
and instead because the moirallegiance ends up all asymmetric because Thor isn't really putting any effort into reciprocating (it's just an arranged moirallegiance anyway, they can work that out after they've been bonded into it! Right now we're just in cahoots, right, buddy? pal? Right!) it looks like they've fallen into the highblood <> lowblood stereotype where Loki has not really played the right cards to be monarch rather than consort
leading to "Oh yeah?? well I can highblood rage TOO!"
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: Goooood
Also, that extremely sounds like Odin, although I think Thor: Ragnarok makes a compelling unstated case for the idea that Loki might have had a shot after all -- Odin just didn't want Loki to have a shot because Loki reminded him too much of himself, but at the same time, Loki also reminded Odin of all of Odin's greatest strengths, while Thor was a big dumb idiot whose strengths lay primarily in things Odin never even tried
Gwen: in fact Loki justifies his Asgard-aberrant behaviors as being acting out to try to get Thor's attention and pacification, you know, because this is a two-way thing
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: Goooood
(I agree with the thing above, but also at the same time, I feel like at some point, both of them were pretty much simultaneously like, this other kid is a disaster, i need to take care of him, and neither one of them ever ever ever talked about that realization or that determination with the other)
Gwen: Thor: haha, I am so glad that I can count on you to drop these silly wigglerish behaviors when we ascend to the thrones!
Loki: *facepalm*
mixed with
Thor: Oh, that Loki. Sure he's got some quirks but I accept him the way he is!
Loki: *facepalm x 2*
depending on the acting-out in question
(I haven't seen subsequent Thor movies so my characterization is not informed by sequel info)
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: and then because both of them just assume that things are obvious to the other, coupled with their original situation with the arranged moirallegiance, this magnifies loki's resentfulness and thor's obliviousness even further, loki being "god damn it i'm taking this both professionally and personally serious and he's still being a noncommittal doofus", and thor being like "boy i'm glad that both of us have settled into caring for each other and are taking this moirallegiance seriously now" (without realizing that his attempts at moirallegiance are both too rare and too bewildering for loki to realize that thor actually cares and is actually trying now)
because, like, for all that loki is much much much better at reading subtle behaviors and understanding psychology than thor is, thor is just so completely different from loki in how he thinks that really there was no way loki could ever realize what thor is thinking here
and then thor is a doofus and loki is way too subtle and lives in his own head way too much to be healthy, so of course thor also misses what loki thinks are incredibly clear messages that loki has begun to care a lot personally about him in addition to Being A Good Moirail For The Cameras
***
ScarletKilometers: Batsy<3Its main detractors are people who never ship the main couple in anything out of spite and people who openly resent how the writers just keep dragging out the ust forever and will never give them any onscreen resolution
Bumblebard: therere gonna be some joker<3ScarletKilometers: Okay yes
There are exactly two opinions on the distressingly canon Joker<>Harley
"FUCK that shit"
And
"This ship is cute stop making everything so dark"
Bumblebard: just like joker<3harley irl
ScarletKilometers: It has a niche of fans that are super into black/pale reacharound but most of the fandom just pretends it's not a thing
This niche sees a lot of Joker<3Bumblebard: is batman their auspistice in that interpretation
i cant spell for Shir
*Shit
ScarletKilometers: Basically all the open Turbulent Vacillation Drama Fetishists are in the Joker/Harley/Ivy clusterfuck
The Batman/Catwoman shippers nominally like in spite of all the Turbulent Vacillation Drama
You can tell they're lying because almost all of the J/H/I clusterfuck fic has Batman/Catwoman as a background pairing
Bumblebard: there is a whole genre of fics thats jist a collection of oneshots and the goal is to get one batman:spades:[any batman villain] chapter til you git each villain no matter how little they appeared
ScarletKilometers: Almost certainly
Bumblebard: its like that one bit in the start of the lego batman movie where they just start villain rollcall
ScarletKilometers: Yes
Bumblebard: there is huge debate whether batman and superman would be better in hearts or spades
with a small moirail niche
ScarletKilometers: Somewhere there is a 30+ chapter Batman<3Wonder Woman: Ashen Stud is probably big with the Troll Justice League fandom
You can find Batman/Mr. Freeze fic in every quadrant and au setting under the moons, but they're all really angsty slowburns
the Batman<3Bumblebard: oh definitely
i bet theres even a small niche for batman<>harley, typically also combined with harley<3ivy and joker<3 <Two-Face is the fandom's Papyrus/Mettaton in that it should theoretically be a crack ship but it's still nearly as popular as the canon ships
ScarletKilometers: action movies on alternia are probably nigh-universally blackrom epics
people complain about mandatory blackrom plots in superhero films like we complain about mandatory generic het couples in basically everything
people are 0kay with thor<3<loki because they clearly flipped from pale and that itself is somewhat novel
Thor <> Loki is like. the worst pairing i can conceive of with them :|
in their past I mean
ScarletKilometers: I mean the "two idiots who've known eachother practically forever" aspect of their dynamic would be harder to hint at when the concept of siblings and therefor conventional sibling relationships don't actually exist
"ex shildhood moirails" is a good approximation tho
most of the fan content featuring these two that I interact with is filtered through the perspective of "remember these two have known eachother since they were toddlers fucking hell this is bananas"
and they really aren't the same to me if you loose that
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: Yeah I mean, the fact that both of them were disastrously, epically, amazingly godawful at the part of their relationship that a troll would categorize as moirallegiance is basically the conflict at the heart of both characters
ScarletKilometers: exactly
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: Thor didn't even notice; Loki did, but that made it even worse for him
and in turn for Thor.
Karrin Boo👻: Honestly that sounds great
Also I do not remember the bathtub fic having quite this many spelling errors
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: They both super super clearly felt like their most important duty was to console and to moderate their sibling, and Thor had no idea how fucking bad he was at it, and Loki was quite good at it but also resented it
which in turn led to him also being bad at it
ScarletKilometers: Failure Mode Tire Fire Moirails just have a lot of interesting potential in general
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: Yeah!
ScarletKilometers: whether they're actively bad for eachother or just mutually comically inept
Gwen: Terezi and Vriska knew each other since they were little and also called each other sisters and also were not moirails before
ScarletKilometers: true, but their narrative conventions are not our narrative conventions
Gwen: I know I probably bring up my humans quadrants in these discussions more than is preferred but even trolls experience the cahoots and shenanipals relationships even if they dont conceive of them as quadrants due to they have four other quadrants and if you had eight they'd be octants
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: I feel like the pre-Team-Charge-Debacle Terezi and Vriska would basically be a perfect example of quadrant-ambiguous-UST in troll media
lowhich is mostly a cover for me thinking pale thor/loki would be a really funny trainwreck
yeah probably
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: Which jesus christ could you imagine the ship wars around media with quadrant-ambiguous UST
Gwen: I feel it is perfectly possible to be in a cohort of raised-together-ish people (keeping in mind that Troll Asgard is also not the same as Alternia) and have similar dynamics without having tried to manage each other's emotions at any point
Unresolved Romantic Tension surely
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: Oh absolutely, but that is not the case in the canonical MCU
(yes you're right, URT)
ScarletKilometers: let's assume tho that this is a symptom of film producers having a shit sense of "is a romantic element actually necessary" being a pan-universal constant and that I was making a Profound Point
Gwen: :P
touche
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: Ha! Good. :D
But, like, the problems between Thor and Loki in the first film are absolutely a case of them both trying to manage each other's emotions and each others' personal development and being mutually godawful at it
Gwen: that wasnt really how I read it
to be fair the Homestuck-canon Worst Moirail Pairs also definitely had one person straight up not understand what moirallegiance was supposed to entail, like, at all, so
Thor being completely oblivious to his half of the bargain scans
ScarletKilometers: Meanwhile Troll Star Wars is kind of an anomaly because the main conflict is ancestor/descendant and all the black ships are background pairings
Gwen:(neither Vriska nor Eridan understand why their moirail keeps trying to like, interfere in their life and find out their emotions and relationships and stuff??? it's none of your business! <>)
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: (yessss)
ScarletKilometers: the ship wars between han<>luke and han<>chewie are intense
Gwen: Luke <3 Lei: the entire empire collectively did a double-take when The Troll Force Awakens was sizing up to be a pale epic
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: I mean, Loki is constantly talking about how he was always having to manage Thor's feelings and moderate Thor's behavior, and the thing that gets him in hot water with Asgard is him resorting to desperate measures in an attempt to force Thor to grow the fuck up (now tainted by his own resentment over all of the above, and his own desire for the thing that Thor is getting), and when pushed, Thor retaliates by trying to talk about how much he's done the same sorts of thing for Loki's bad ideas and emotional weaknesses
Gwen: Yes I think I definitely accept the Loki side for sure
and consideration of Eridan and Vriska has led me to OK the Thor side
I wonder if it was like. an arranged moirallegiance? that they grew up in?
one of you will be the king. and one of you will be the consort. which is which, I'm not telling :3
you both definitely have a shot though!
Narrator: they did not both definitely have a shot though.
ScarletKilometers: from hiveswap it seems like "you two grew up near eachother and are sort of friends, time to get moirailed" is a fairly normal model too
Gwen: Yeah I meant Asgard Politics
it would be pretty tragic if Loki is like, Ok this is one thing I know for sure what is expected of us, just need to make sure to get this moirallegiance thing right and impress Odin and prove I can take the responsibility of the throne
and instead because the moirallegiance ends up all asymmetric because Thor isn't really putting any effort into reciprocating (it's just an arranged moirallegiance anyway, they can work that out after they've been bonded into it! Right now we're just in cahoots, right, buddy? pal? Right!) it looks like they've fallen into the highblood <> lowblood stereotype where Loki has not really played the right cards to be monarch rather than consort
leading to "Oh yeah?? well I can highblood rage TOO!"
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: Goooood
Also, that extremely sounds like Odin, although I think Thor: Ragnarok makes a compelling unstated case for the idea that Loki might have had a shot after all -- Odin just didn't want Loki to have a shot because Loki reminded him too much of himself, but at the same time, Loki also reminded Odin of all of Odin's greatest strengths, while Thor was a big dumb idiot whose strengths lay primarily in things Odin never even tried
Gwen: in fact Loki justifies his Asgard-aberrant behaviors as being acting out to try to get Thor's attention and pacification, you know, because this is a two-way thing
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: Goooood
(I agree with the thing above, but also at the same time, I feel like at some point, both of them were pretty much simultaneously like, this other kid is a disaster, i need to take care of him, and neither one of them ever ever ever talked about that realization or that determination with the other)
Gwen: Thor: haha, I am so glad that I can count on you to drop these silly wigglerish behaviors when we ascend to the thrones!
Loki: *facepalm*
mixed with
Thor: Oh, that Loki. Sure he's got some quirks but I accept him the way he is!
Loki: *facepalm x 2*
depending on the acting-out in question
(I haven't seen subsequent Thor movies so my characterization is not informed by sequel info)
🌟Iny, Devourer of Genders: and then because both of them just assume that things are obvious to the other, coupled with their original situation with the arranged moirallegiance, this magnifies loki's resentfulness and thor's obliviousness even further, loki being "god damn it i'm taking this both professionally and personally serious and he's still being a noncommittal doofus", and thor being like "boy i'm glad that both of us have settled into caring for each other and are taking this moirallegiance seriously now" (without realizing that his attempts at moirallegiance are both too rare and too bewildering for loki to realize that thor actually cares and is actually trying now)
because, like, for all that loki is much much much better at reading subtle behaviors and understanding psychology than thor is, thor is just so completely different from loki in how he thinks that really there was no way loki could ever realize what thor is thinking here
and then thor is a doofus and loki is way too subtle and lives in his own head way too much to be healthy, so of course thor also misses what loki thinks are incredibly clear messages that loki has begun to care a lot personally about him in addition to Being A Good Moirail For The Cameras
***
ScarletKilometers: Batsy<3
Bumblebard: therere gonna be some joker<3
There are exactly two opinions on the distressingly canon Joker<>Harley
"FUCK that shit"
And
"This ship is cute stop making everything so dark"
Bumblebard: just like joker<3harley irl
ScarletKilometers: It has a niche of fans that are super into black/pale reacharound but most of the fandom just pretends it's not a thing
This niche sees a lot of Joker<3
i cant spell for Shir
*Shit
ScarletKilometers: Basically all the open Turbulent Vacillation Drama Fetishists are in the Joker/Harley/Ivy clusterfuck
The Batman/Catwoman shippers nominally like in spite of all the Turbulent Vacillation Drama
You can tell they're lying because almost all of the J/H/I clusterfuck fic has Batman/Catwoman as a background pairing
Bumblebard: there is a whole genre of fics thats jist a collection of oneshots and the goal is to get one batman:spades:[any batman villain] chapter til you git each villain no matter how little they appeared
ScarletKilometers: Almost certainly
Bumblebard: its like that one bit in the start of the lego batman movie where they just start villain rollcall
ScarletKilometers: Yes
Bumblebard: there is huge debate whether batman and superman would be better in hearts or spades
with a small moirail niche
ScarletKilometers: Somewhere there is a 30+ chapter Batman<3
You can find Batman/Mr. Freeze fic in every quadrant and au setting under the moons, but they're all really angsty slowburns
the Batman<3
i bet theres even a small niche for batman<>harley, typically also combined with harley<3ivy and joker<3
no subject
Date: 2019-01-21 06:07 pm (UTC)